CAVO Ep. 66: Does Hybrid Work Result in a Two-Tiered Workforce?

The Covid-19 global pandemic has inevitably created a new normal, yielding “The Great Resignation” and shifting the way employees work. As some organizations are prompting a return to office, others have embraced virtual and hybrid work. How does this impact the workforce? In this podcast, Henry Kurkowski, author of Remote Work Technology: Keeping Your Small Business Thriving from Anywhere, joins Dr. Brian Allen, Professor in the School of Business at Northcentral University, to discuss current trends in hybrid work and the two-tiered workforce.

Transcript

00:00.55
Brian Allen
Welcome to the center for the advancement of virtual organizations podcast does hybrid work result in a two-tiered workforce. My name is Brian Allen and I'm a professor in the school of business at north central university today I'm joined by  Henry Kurkowski author of remote work technology keeping your small business thriving anywhere today. Our discussion will focus on current trends in hybrid work and the two-tier workforce welcome Henry and thanks so much for taking time to come and chat.

00:30.72
Henry Kurkowski
Hey Brian I appreciate you inviting me to come talk with you.

00:34.61
Brian Allen
Excellent Henry would you get us started and tell us a little bit about yourself.

00:40.00
Henry Kurkowski
Okay, well hey I've um, been working in the virtual environment of the past twenty years I've co-founded a number of software as service company based companies cloud based companies. Um manage wifi digital communications and we've go. I I designed them from the get go to be virtual so we have our our call centers are in Idaho our servers are housed in New York and the people who manage them are out. There are counties in Orlando I work out between Indianapolis and key west going back and forth. 

And yeah, we also extend that remote management tool. All of our customers across the us manage what we manage wifi for businesses as a customer engagement tool as a digital engagement tool for tenants. Um, for residents and apartment communities and again everything is is virtual cloud base and when we saw what was happening with the shutdowns. Um, we saw that a lot of companies were struggling because a lot of companies were not designed to go. Virtual all of a sudden and many small businesses especially didn't have any kind of remote capability. So when the shutdowns happened we saw all the news of what was going on it. It causes a great deal of stress and we you know we on our customer base. We helped people where we could. Um, and ah, but we I felt that there was a greater need and that I was very glad when Wiley had approached me about writing this book on remote work technology.

02:24.38
Brian Allen
So excellent. Um, yeah, as ah as a serial entrepreneur I've seen ah a good deal of that and and supporting Companies. So I Totally understand that um in your book you describe ways to increase organizational productivity through remote workers. And way leaders can support remote remote workers since they don't see them in Person. Could you maybe talk a little bit about that.

02:49.80
Henry Kurkowski
Yeah, absolutely you know when again going back to and when the shutdowns happened there were and then the news there was a lot of stories of people struggling with remote work from from the employees to the employers and you know we saw. Things stories of isolation Zoom fatigue. Um, and yeah people things that were being done poorly from a technology standpoint as well as a managerial standpoint it was interesting that you know when I interviewed executives from across the country in the middle of the. Ah, shutdowns. Their first reactions were to and it's it's a human reaction is to everybody get your nose to the grindstone and everybody needs to work as hard as they can until we're through this crisis that again is a human reaction. 

But unfortunately it produced. The feelings of isolation it enhanced the burnout that people found because not only was it an impact of suddenly being separated from their other team members. But also the psychological impact of what was happening around the world. So the added pressure. Ah, to keep working as hard as you can created a a funk within these people and and led to some of the isolation and burnout that they were experiencing on top of everything they were experiencing from the pandemic. Um, yeah, so. Was important to me as a technology driven person to help people where they could with the technology but also understand the psychology of why it should be used in a certain way and the impacts that it has on people if it's used in the wrong way. 

Because we have to I discuss maslov's tiers of of needs in there and how people can suddenly when they get separated from one section they can feel like they're not being appreciated and they go to look for another tribe that will appreciate them. And that's where you're also seeing you know signs from the great resignation people with their less having a lower satisfaction of where they are with their team so they go look for another team to be happier with and again it's from a poor use of technology and the management styles that needed to change thinking that their. In-person management styles could be easily transposed to the remote management styles and you know seeing people seeing the work being done translated to them monitoring apps instead of going to flexibility and more trust.

05:36.67
Henry Kurkowski
So You saw a poor way of using technology and management styles drive people away and drive isolation and so that's what I was trying to help prevent with the book and I think it the way it's laid out and the way that. We discuss why we use technology a certain way really helps make a difference in helping create an environment where there's flexibility trust and transparency.

06:03.70
Brian Allen
So excellent. Um, so you know obviously we've we've had a little time under our belt and so I guess the the kind of the next question was you know how has the nearly I guess what are 2 years of work from home altered how employees and employer attitudes are about. Where when and how work is done. How would those have those changed.

06:23.52
Henry Kurkowski
Well, you know it's the management styles really did change. Ah again, speaking to the the executives that I spoke to across the country when they were in the middle of the shutdowns. You know I asked them what would you be? What would you do different if you had to do it over again. And the overwhelming response was the same that they would lead with more empathy that they would lead. You know they they would be more aware. They would be more open and they would listen more because they needed to understand that everybody was struggling. Um, it was something new to everybody you know around the world but also with their management styles again, you know trying seeing the in-person all the time there was still a great deal of people who wanted to see and and they still are butts and seats from 9 to 5 you know and that's yeah, it's kind of a a mentality of almost like when and those movies you see in the 50 s with pools of secretaries and the management are in a glass booth looking down on everybody so they can visually see work being done and people know that they're being watched and. 

There are still too many people thinking that way and we're seeing companies calling people back to the office forcefully. Um, and ah, you know there's some of them are being smart about it. They're saying hey you have to be in at least three days a week you can work remotely the other days but there's too many people that are demanding them come in and. It's driving people away because we saw what flexibility and empathy can do and improve the employee experience and the quality of work that comes out of the employees. So you know. We're seeing a snap back to wanting see to see people with butts and seats between 9 to 5 and but you know on the other hand a great number of organizations have really leaned into a work from air anywhere flexibility and that mindset seeing higher employee satisfaction has a great. Deal of impact on the quality of work that's being done and on employee retention and of course yeah, the happier. The employees are the the better their relationships with the clients are going to be so it's it's we're seeing a nice, an interesting mix of people trying to go back. To what they considered or is normal. Um and force other people to go back to what to how they envision normalcy and other people who are leaning into this opportunity to create something great and new.

09:04.58
Brian Allen
Yeah, you, you actually touched on a couple things that I think are really important for me and this is maybe my personal modus operandi but I have always focused on this idea that you you lead people and you manage thing and things and when you begin to. Manage people and then hope to lead things you have things out of balance and I think that's I think that's really you really kind of touched on that in a strong way. Um, what would you identify as the key ways work from home employees help small businesses to thrive and then I kind of follow up with that is. Are there some specific drawbacks that need greater attention or have not yet been addressed.

09:48.41
Henry Kurkowski
Well, you know it. It falls to me that employees are the best advocates and the best marketing tool of any small business and when the employees are enthusiastic about the company they work for and they believe in the work that the company is doing. They want to tell people about it. Ah, so the the happier they are the the better their the employee experience the better it is for the company. The better it is for the customers I mean it's ah this is it's a beautiful life cycle that goes back and forth. So if you can find talented people but they want to work remotely. And they can do their jobs remotely let that happen let stop fighting that tie at at the end of the day employees whether they're in office or remote their brand ambassadors. 

They are the best recruitment team for new talent for retaining that talent and bringing in new customers. And you know I honestly I can't think of any drawbacks for a small business other than for those who are still not accustomed to managing a workforce that they can't see in person every day there's ah still a lot of managers who have to fight the urges to fall backwards into the management styles where they measure productivity by having. Butts and seats for a set number of hours a day and and that's something that you know it's a lesson that we've learned but it's it's still really hard to get rid of those old habits.

11:15.44
Brian Allen
And yeah, I Totally agree with ah you know the the the challenge there with habits is that they may or may not be good ones right? and so from a management and leadership perspective. Those those habits may be. Detrimental in the long run they can be positive obviously but they can be detrimental. Um, so some are concerned with the return to the physical workplace and that hybrid work will alienate virtual workers. What are your thoughts on that.

11:45.30
Henry Kurkowski
Well, you know and and that's something that I also discussed in the book with with some of the executives and how they were already planning ahead of time in you know in the middle of ah 2021 when they would go back to having both. Remote and in-person employees. Um, you know they were starting to hire people remotely knowing that they may never meet these people that was a first for a lot of people. You know they were out of state and they had to think of how do we keep everybody on one team. 

And it's important that companies change their policies to intentionally prevent any type of distance bias or any kind of perception that there are 2 teams of workers that means creating a mindset that is digital first and how things are being done so treat everything like. It was being done digitally and remotely if they don't do this with incredible intention. They will end up creating a perception that there are those who are inside the company and those who are work outside the company and are looking in it. It instantly creates even if it a perception of a them. And an us and whatever label you slap on it 2 tiered or or what have you having a second class citizen is never a good thing for any organization.

13:09.40
Brian Allen
Yeah, totally agree there? Um why? Why do you think there is a concern about that 2 wo-tiered workforce and what do you think it means or what are the implications for that.

13:19.47
Henry Kurkowski
Well, you know it again going back to human nature. There's a camaraderie that comes naturally when working in the trenches side by side with somebody on your team. You know there's that and the knowing looks you can make you know the the you know little elbow jabs things like that. You can't do with people who are you know remote all the time. Um, and you know it's it's part of human nature to feel closer to those that we see in person on a regular basis with hybrid workspaces. Those feelings may be the cause of unintentional biases. So we need to again. Think with a digital first mindset and not given to the reactions of bias that we may have as old habits now people who work fully remotely should be given the same pay rate as those in office employees and they should be given equal consideration for promotions and career advancement. 

Not just. Hey you know because I see this person all the time we've created ah a bit more than you know ah a stronger connection a stronger friendship. You can't just give it to those people because you see them all the time and that's what people fear and a lot of um gen z. had reported that they had thought that or they have the perception that they have missed out on promotions. They have missed out on career advancement because they've been working remotely when they feel that face time and being in person adds value to their career path. And so we have to make a very intentional from the top of the company all the way down to the lowest levels of management and supervisors to every day make sure that we are not subconsciously creating any idea that there are 2 teams of people. Everybody has to be held equally accountable as well as you know as as well as being seen at basically measure by productivity. Not by who's in the office and not who's out of the office. So. If we go to a productivity based model of of seeing how people the quality of work that's being done. That's where we want to be. That's the goal.

15:39.47
Brian Allen
So If you if you don't mind let me ask maybe? Ah ah an odd question here but technology seems to be a differentiator in creating a 2 wo-tier approach right? So Those who work remote sometimes feel that they are disadvantaged. By that by technology. How can that be addressed to avoid that where there's an appropriate equal ah technology support. How would you address that? well.

16:07.21
Henry Kurkowski
Well and um, it was interesting. One of the people I interviewed in the book Leslie Murphy 1 of the things that she said really struck me when thinking ahead of when yeah we are back to an office you know in ah in a hybrid model. 1 of the we have to change how our policies work in communication how we communicate with each other because communication is key to everything to the clarity to transparency one of the things that she was implementing is um, but previously when they had remote employees and they had in office employees. You know before the shutdowns. 

Ah, all the people who are in the office would gather into the conference room for a meeting and then those people who were outside of the office would be on a video monitor or a Polycom device. You know, conference room device and so everybody you would have a distinct impression of hey there's people who here in the office and there's people outside the office. So what she has done is she has changed the policy so that even when they go back to having people in the office when they do have meetings that include everybody who remote workers and in-office employees. Everybody will take the meeting from their desk so that it dissolves the illusion that hey. Everybody in the office are grouped together and then all these separate people are separate on their own by everybody doing it from their own desk. We go back to an equality and the the real zemblance of everybody's on an on an even tier.

17:39.37
Brian Allen
So excellent I like that idea. Um so what would you say are the top 3 strategies organizations should consider to avoid a 2 wo-tier workforce now I know that's putting a little pressure to give you just 3 But what would you think are the top.

17:56.46
Henry Kurkowski
Well one I would say you create policies that lead with a digital first way of working just like with with with Leslie Murphy did with her group with with meetings I just talked about this will make it so that regardless of where you work in office or out of office.

17:57.70
Brian Allen
Top 3

18:16.70
Henry Kurkowski
The work can still be done equally as well. So think in a might create your policy so you know you may be in the office on Thursday but you know you'll be out Monday Tuesday Wednesday so create a workflow and policies where that is. That enables that kind of work to be done because again there there may be people who'll never come into the office. Um also create avenues for face time and increase visibility for for fully and partially remote workers have open office hours ah make sure that. People can be seen and get that that visibility that the you know generation z and millennials and other people have been ah feeling. It has been holding them back with remote work. 

They they want to be seen outside of just meetings so you need to create opportunities for that for that kind of social settings. Four open hours so that people and make sure that people can come to management and leadership of e level and ask questions. Um I'll create avenues where they have mentorship with people on higher ups so that these people who may never be in the office. Can get equal time with people who are in the office. Um, and and most importantly, actively solicit feedback feedback and then act on that feedback. There's there's no good in getting good information from people if you don't use it. You know, ah knowledge not you knowledge had not used is is worthless. Um, you know by actively soliciting feedback constantly. This is a preventative measure that will allow minor course correcting along the way so you don't need to make major navigational changes in management or policy. So just little tweaks here and there but constantly solicit feedback from everybody. And how things are going after a project hey what can be done better.

20:08.40
Brian Allen
Yeah I love that approach. Um, it's the key. It's kind of that key component of you want to encourage an innovative ah organization. But then when people provide ideas that are innovative. They get no response and so therefore you kill innovation. So I think they're you're right on on Target there.

20:26.73
Henry Kurkowski
Well you and it not only kills innovation and kills enthusiasm Nobody wants to be in any kind of a relationship where they feel they are not being heard at the end of the day this is about relationships you know we. As company Leaders. We have a lot of responsibility in our hands we're holding these people's careers in our hands we're holding their livelihoods in their hands. How we impact them on a daily basis impacts how they impact their home life How they impact those around them. So you know. Again, Nobody wants to be in a relationship where they feel that they're not being heard because not being heard means that you're not being appreciated and people go where they feel appreciated. They leave relationships where they're not being appreciated.

21:12.52
Brian Allen
Yeah I Very much agree with that. Well thank you very much those have been very insightful. So um, in closing. Do you have any additional insights that you would share with our listeners.

21:22.53
Henry Kurkowski
Yeah, you know this is still an uncertain time for both employees and employers. Um, we need to move away from the mindset of feeling that we need to see workers in the week and the work that's being done. Um, the. That the work is being done is quality work from well- Engagedd employees who are enthusiastic about the work that they do is what is important. 

That's the goal that managers and company leaders should be striving for now the the future of work. Is based in the employee experience we have an ah unprecedented opportunity to remake the workplace across the board into something that meets everyone's goals and makes that experience something that people want to come in and be it a part of each day. So let's not waste this opportunity. Let's align. Employees career goals, professional goals alongside company goals and be open and honest about what each wants from that relationship and move forward that way with enthusiasm and trust that's that's that's what we should be striving for.

22:28.63
Brian Allen
Excellent. Yeah I Totally agree. Um, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you today and we want to thank you for supporting the center for the advancement of virtual organizations. We appreciate your insights and we hope. That our listeners enjoy it and that they'll benefit from your experience. Thank you so much.

22:49.40
Henry Kurkowski
Hey thank you so much for having me I appreciate you.