CAVO Ep. 81: Digital Nomads and Imagined Worlds of Work

If you are interested in digital nomadism and work-life balance, you won’t want to miss this episode hosted by Rowena Hennigan, CAVO Visiting Virtual Expert, and founder of @RoRemote, a remote skills training and consultancy company. Rowena chats with guest Dave Cook about the results of his seven-year study to dispel the idea of complete freedom of the nomad lifestyle. Dave is an anthropologist, consultant and leader in remote work, digital nomadism, and work-life balance. Read more about Dave’s study The freedom trap: digital nomads and the use of disciplining practices to manage work/leisure boundaries. For more information and resources from Rowena Hennigan, visit RoRemote. Also, learn more about Dave at I Am Dave Cook.

Transcript

Rowena Hennigan
0:01 
Welcome, welcome. And thank you for joining us on this Cabo webinar. And my name is Rowena Hennigan. And this is part of my Cabo visiting expert season trimester with Cabo. And I'm joining you today from Zaragosa in the north of Spain. And I'm delighted to have the expert Dave Cook joining me and I believe he's in London today. Sometimes when I speak to him in different locations. The last time we connected I believe you're in Thailand, Dave. And Dave Cook is an esteemed peer of mine in the area, subject area, expertise, that he is an expert that he is on digital nomadism. So Dave, welcome. Where are you today?

Dave Cook
0:44 
I'm in Clapham London. I just got back from Thailand a couple of weeks ago.

Rowena Hennigan
0:50 
Fantastic, fantastic. And we've invited Dave here today to have a conversation round out fantastic piece of research that he has just been finishing off, I believe we'll get an update from him, which has been going on for about quite a significant amount of time studying digital nomads. And it's been one of the things and part of the reading that I've been doing in learning about digital nomadism. So Dave, let's kick off and tell us a little bit about your the start of the research. What inspired you to look at the topic?

Dave Cook
1:24 
Yeah, a lot of people often ask me that question. And I wish I had a better answer. I mean, I were it was 2015. And I was planning to do a research project on some kind of mobility or transnational mobility. And I discovered the term digital nomad in Copan. Yang, in December 2015. And I was having some conversations with a German expat about this type of person that tends to travel and never go home. We were talking about traveling and working, but it was just this person that just manages magically to circulate around the globe or stay in Thailand without going home. And, and this guy said, what you're talking about a digital nomads, and I said, what what on earth is a digital nomad?

And he said, Well, there's a conference in Bangkok in a couple of months. Let's go. And so I went back to the UK. And then I went back to Bangkok. And I went to this digital nomad conference to try and find out what a digital nomad was. And they announced on stage that there was a social scientist coming to study digital nomads. And everybody asked me what a digital nomad was. So it was a conference for digital nomads that nobody knew. So that was the beginning of my research projects. And going to that conference, it wasn't helpful in me finding a definition, but it was certainly helpful in starting conversations. And those conversations are ongoing. Still today. And you know, you were talking about the project coming to the end, it seems as if there was never going to be an end to this project. Now, all of this stuff around the pandemic has happened, because I can tell you, when I started talking about this, people thought I was mad. Nobody was interested in it. It was a very niche thing. And now my life's completely changed.

Rowena Hennigan
3:30 
Well, wonderful, wonderful. And so for churches that you were in one of the places in Thailand that is known for the origins of the movement, and definitions we can talk about later, but certainly where people were beginning to spend time and work digitally, right from Thailand, Bali, as we know, there's these kinds of key early locations. So it's really for choose to say that you were there. And kind of ironic, in a way, maybe here we are not that you were in person there and started to meet the people because I think that's what often causes confusion, isn't it about the whole area, because it seems like the media portrays often digital nomads as this poster person working from a beach, or whatever these kinds of ideal pictures that we get. And the reality can be quite different. So I find it really fascinating as well. And I'm sure it helped with your inspiration, or your motivation for the research that you met real people. You met the real people that were doing this, which we're still not sure exactly what it is that we're doing this. So tell me then how the research evolved after that conference after those initial sort of inspirations that you had to start the story off?

Dave Cook
4:44 
Yeah. So in terms of packaging it as a research project, one of the problems that anybody I'm researching this is going to have whether they're a journalist or whether they're an academic or Whether they're trying to launch a digital nomad business is trying to locate digital nomads, and you know, they're always moving, they're always going to different places. One of the things that my mum always says when I talk about digital nomads, because she's 90 Now, but she went on to YouTube, and research them. And, um, her first characterization was they've got great skin, and they're all over the place. Which I thought was hilarious. But, you know, one of the one of the research problems I had is where do I go to find digital nomads, because, you know, they're always moving there a bit of a diaspora. And I went to a co working space on one of the Thai islands. And I conducted or started conducting my research from a co working space. They're visible, the ones look sort of like come out of their Arab Airbnbs. And into the daylight, you can find in co working spaces.

Rowena Hennigan
5:59 
Definitely in a co working space, anyone who nomads or travels and remote works, and there is that kind of where these two things seem to mix together. The definitions possibly ignore that a co working spaces are really good. That seems the word seems to have gotten that in that place to find connection when you do go to a destination. But is it so interesting that that's often where, you know, back to that cliche of great skin? I don't know why I met him, no matter what grade skin. But yeah, it's it's so interesting that there's all these preconceptions, and as you defined out the research, and as you started to explore, tell me a little bit more about how Thailand played a role then, in the research.

Dave Cook
6:46 
Yeah. So I mean, first of all, I'm going to address the skin issue because I think what my mom meant by that was the digital nomad cliche that, you know, we're talking about millennial Gen Zed, people who are traveling, so they just tended to be younger, they tended to be freelancers from the Global North. So from Germany, Australia, America, the UK, those kinds of places. And when I started going into co working spaces, and conducting and conducting research, I was younger than I was now. But I was still old of a lot of the digital nomads that I was doing research with. So they were quite interested in my curiosity, actually, and the word digital nomads in their 30s, and 40s, but most of them were in their 20s. So you know, 2015 2016, this stereotype of digital nomads as a carefree millennial knowledge worker working on laptops, pretty much four out in the co working spaces that I went to, there are always outliers. We shouldn't stereotype too much.

But it was a very niche lifestyle, background, and we're having different conversations now. So just to go back to your other part of the question, which was about Thailand. I was originally in Copan. Yang when I came across the term, I went to the conference that was in Bangkok, everybody was talking about Chiang Mai and Bali. So I quickly moved my research to the I have a link with Thailand, after having gone there. And being involved in the wellness community and doing yoga teacher trainings. That was one of the things I was going to research actually initially was looking at people conducting yoga trainings because they travel around the world, you know, sort of like following, you know, sort of like different yoga communities, and they'll do a training in places like Bali, and Thailand.

And it just so happened that the digital nomad phenomenon and lifestyle really, really caught the imagination in those places. And you know, latterly you know, places like medi in and you know, sort of like places like Lisbon were talked about. You just need to go to Nomad list now to see that ever changing pop chart of locations, and it's much broader. But for me, my research has been rooted in Southeast Asia, particularly Thailand. And over recent years. I've really focused on Chiang Mai because I've become an affiliate affiliated with the university. And I've started working with them. I recently did a course and I was teaching undergraduates and master students and mentoring PhD students. When I first went to Chiang Mai University a few years ago, most of the people in the department hadn't heard of the term. So this was happening on their doorstep. So it's been really interesting to go back and then start to have conversations with Tom Isn't that they're not just ties at the university.

There are students on the international program from all around Asia, including China and the Philippines and my MA. But having conversations from a non farang, non western point of view has been really, really interesting. Because we, as digital nomads do tend tend to look at these places as low cost of living places, places, which were previously places of tourism. So I'm just trying to get a little bit more of a 360 degree view of what's happening.

Rowena Hennigan
10:35 
Oh, fascinating. And it really interesting because I would have had the same experience when I no matter what in 2008 2009, I again, didn't know that's what I was doing at the time, didn't self identify as that, but I was working remotely from Bali, you know, free. And often it was simply just from friends houses, it was the wasn't really co workings it was. Again, it's interesting, because the locals that I knew the Balinese were simply seeing people as long as the tourists are more than two were potentially for lots of reasons that they weren't necessarily working in earning so. And yet, it's kind of it's fascinating to look at it like that as well. But that piece on self identification, or people identifying as nomads is it is interesting to me simply because my personal experience as well. And over the years, I think, Can you can you shine a bit of light on how that's changed. Because even from 2015, to more recently, your recent trip, the definition the term, it's more prevalent post COVID for people to travel and combine remote work. So what have you What changes have you seen there, Dave?

Dave Cook
11:48 
Well, I'll start with the initial definition. And I'll pick up on what you were talking about self identification, because I think that's quite important. So if we think back to 2015, there were a lot of people on the scene that were excited about the term otherwise, people wouldn't have gone to that conference in the first place place. So, you know, people were very drawn to the idea, the idea of being able to work and travel and being mobile. The other term that was used quite a lot in those days was location independent, it still is by some people.

And then one of the things that I have found, because I've been following some people for eight years, so I you know, things unravel, and they unfurl over time, people's personal trajectories. But sometimes people become very excited about the term and they very strongly identify with it, then they might disavow the term a little bit. Over time as they become experienced. That seems like quite a neophyte thing to identify with, but in terms of demography, demographics, you know, marketing, creating businesses. It is a target market. Now, I was talking to Laura and rove ATSI. The other day, I was interviewing her for a piece that I'm doing about, you know, redefining the term digital nomadism, which I can't really talk about too much today. But she said, Well, you know, we need to know what we're talking about if we are going to create products and services for these types of people. And I think that's the same for academic researchers as well.

We need to be able to be specific about our terms. So in 2015 2016 2017, yeah, a lot of them tended to be younger freelance knowledge workers, some people were running their own businesses, very few salaried digital nomads, that conversation is changing quite rapidly now. And they will go into stereotypical places like Chiang Mai, Bangkok, Copan, Yang, Bali, Chang, goo Seminyak, booked those kinds of places. And then everybody started talking about Nadine, in Colombia. And one of the other things that I noticed and I talked about this in a podcast, just when the pandemic started, is there a lot of digital nomads after experimenting with a lifestyle for one or two years, if they were European started to experiment with places back in Europe because timezone differences can be extremely draining. So people new to Nomad circles, you know, might be interested to know there are places like Bansko in Bulgaria that is a mountain village where you can go and ski in the winter. It's not so busy in the summer that's become a digital nomad hub.

And if you're working with other people in Europe that allows you to sync more with time zones. If you're working in Thailand, and you've got clients in Europe, let's not even think about America. Have a bit if you've got clients in Europe, you're working while everybody else is having dinner, and you're stopping at about one o'clock in the morning, and I've done that quite a lot myself, I absolutely hate it. I don't want to repeat it. And, you know, some people think it's worth being in Chiang Mai or on a tyre Island and working in that way. And I always say, come back and tell me if you still agree with that statement in six months time.

Rowena Hennigan
15:32 
So true. Same thing happened to me when I was in Bali. At one point with a new contract, I found it very, very difficult. So it was one of the indicators or motivators for me to come back to Europe, Dave. So I get that I've, I've been there for what you shared there. What's really interesting to me is, and I know we've spoken about this outside of this webinar a little bit is what you touched on. And I'm working with a couple of clients as well, whose offerings are digital nomads, their target markets in there. And with my marketing hat on for a minute persona, segmentation.

And exactly to your discussion with Lauren, there might not be an academic or there might not be a master agreed definition and different definitions of these different terms. But for us, as marketers in a business that's going to be successful, I've found that it's really useful to define how we understand it, and get that documented and draw out some personas. Because then at least you're working to a baseline, that, again, looking for customer feedback, doing your own research within your own company's world, or your product offering world can really help advise. And that's why there is a lot of rhetoric, there is a lot of talk in it's all very useful in terms of hypothetical debate.

And again, practical put, because the market has moved on so quickly. I think anyone listening who's interested in attracting the market, finding out more and wants to market to them and offer something, I think that piece is really, really important that you said there will Laurel come up with your own definitions as near as agree them and start to look at the persona and the details around that. It doesn't have to be something that's universally agreed. And so that really resonates. And I think it's an interesting point, because the the other thing that occurred to me and and I'd like to get your view on it as well, is that there seems to be in life and you're a social anthropologist that people when we talk about self identification or having a label, maybe it's human nature that we want to stick with that label forever.

But I've certainly realized that over time, your you'll change, like you said, a European might go back in your home, they might find that there's a family member that they need want to be near other circumstances might change. So they end up nearer home. They're not no madding as such. Because if you say I'm doing this, it doesn't mean you're doing it forever. So this seems to be so just one. I wonder that's a curiosity of mine what your take is on that about that changing label? Yes,

Dave Cook
18:15 
I mean, so, I mean, we use the term tourists quite a lot, and people very rarely go around saying I'm a tourist. So, you know, oftentimes labels have, they have positive connotations, but they also can have pejorative connotations. So, you know, in the context of overtourism. You know, tourism can have a positive connotation. I'm going on holiday, but it can have a negative one as well. I think digital nomadism falls into that category. There are a lot of Western expats in Chiang Mai. And they do not all identify as digital nomads.

And sometimes they get a little bit hot under the collar, because they kind of feel that they all hang out in certain areas. There's an area called Neeman, which has co working spaces. There's a high concentration of digital nomads. I've heard some expats call them digital bromance, or digital gonads, you know, so it can get quite personal sometimes. And, you know, but for some people are turning up, they're young. They're wanting to go to meetups, you know, they use the term a lot. So yeah, people can disavow it over, over months and years. But sometimes people come back to it as well.

Rowena Hennigan
19:33 
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think that's also interesting around how someone identifies with the time of life or a particular moment in life where they want to travel and they are working remotely. Of course, they may arrive in a place Dave, and I'm sure you might have come across this as well, where they're going to call themselves something else just to sort of fit in with that cultural integration or that cultural a climate a con diarization as well. So I think that's really interesting. And I think also that it's even interesting probably what you've noticed over the seven years, and you've entered out that the difference between what happened pre and post COVID. So just wondering, could you talk to your latest visit, I know you've been to Thailand, and only particular things you noticed in relation to your research.

Dave Cook
20:23 
One of the things that I noticed that was very different is around co working spaces. And I've heard reports of this not just from Chiang Mai, but from all around the world. But I'll give you a you know, my example. So, I mean, the first thing was, was that when the pandemic happened, you know, depending on who you listen to, or what social media you watch, you might have been a bit confused about what happened to the whole digital nomad phenomenon, because there were some people that did stay out of their home states. But actually, I found in my research and having spoken to other researchers, since, you know, most people did go home to access local health, you know, the healthcare systems back in, you know, Home Nations. And, you know, it wasn't practical for most people to you know, stay away stay in Thailand. I do know some people that did stay in Thailand.

But most digital nomads went home. I was curious to see how much of that digital nomad culture and come back what numbers of people that were. And the number seems to the numbers in Chiang Mai seem to bounce back quite high numbers quite quickly. It was certainly the first big season where tourism was coming back and digital nomads were coming back in larger numbers. But the single most interesting thing that I found was that certain co working spaces and the people that I encountered there were organizing themselves quite differently. So there's been a really interesting paper that came out last year about the different types of co working spaces. And I'll just give you two examples. They came up with four in this in this article, but one is called the individualized co working space. So that's where a freelancer would go there work on their own clients and their own tasks. And they'll just go to the co working space to be around people.

And that was certainly the main experience that I had across lots of co working spaces that I went to. But there are also new types of co working spaces called Startup co working spaces, or creative co working spaces, which are cropping up to allow groups of people to work together in the same location. And I certainly saw groups of people working on projects or startups, or from the same company working collaboratively in the same space in places like Chiang Mai. co working spaces before the pandemic, when when there were book editors and copywriters, and translators and all of those kinds of knowledge work skills, being practicing those co working spaces when they were a little bit like libraries, you had to be quiet. People were there to be around other people, but they wanted to focus. So a lot of shifting going on, or people going to Skype rooms and that kind of stuff. So I think that that is going to change as the numbers increase. But we're also going to get more salaried digital nomads, entering into the lifestyle, and they're going to have very different needs. digital nomads oftentimes become to the lifestyle because they want autonomy and they want to control to control their working hours.

The salaried digital nomads is going to be little bit different because they're going to have work contracts with certain amounts of hours a day. Hopefully, and I was talking to Lauren about this as well. Companies will wake up and they'll mature and they'll become a little bit less controlled and less coercive and make things more on outputs than time spent. But I am Lauren's kind of like sees this as happening very, very quickly. I think that for salaried digital nomads that's going to happen a little bit more slowly.

Rowena Hennigan
24:31 
Yeah, I will be I will be with you there from my experience because the digital nomad themselves that are embracing the lifestyle that are entering in they are further ahead than the organizational beasts that might be behind Dave that's controlling that that situation from the employer side. So I think that's really fascinating on the co working Peace, Love that observation. And and also we can maybe share a couple of things as well for further reading because it gets very related to your research, understanding, co working on the evolvement, even of co working as a whole sector industry movement, because even my experience in co working over recent years, for example, when I first went to Bali, there wasn't any co working.

The last time we went four years ago to Sonoran seminar we were using that kind of more droppin type of coworking you mentioned. And then more recently, startup Indonesia has really kicked off. And there's a lot of co working in the co working sector in Indonesia, with startup events, exactly to that point, I walked into one and there was groups of people working together all mixing. So it's become that's evolved to also support the different type of collaboration that a nomad might be looking for as a remote worker in those locations. So I think the way co working has evolved is interesting to the point as well as market services for nomads, understanding what they may need more that they are going to be salaried that they may be working, or looking for collaboration, when they come into a place.

And I'm sure you've come across Impact Hub international as well, which we have here in Spain, and I was a member of the Spanish one here in Zaragosa the local one for a while. And there was lots of events like we're talking about, so that you could connect and lots of groups go there. And they work collaboratively collaboratively in groups there. So there's a lot of progression there. So in terms of the piece, we're going to show it share an image at some point that looks at sort of the definitions and how all these things fit together. So we'll let the image do the talking. But can you talk to that a little bit and and I and you just some of the ways that you've learned laid out in that beautiful image, the work focus, the high mobility, the low mobility and the non work focus across that, and some of you have heard research impacted or influenced that,

Dave Cook
27:00 
of course, okay, so yeah, so the image that you're describing, was created to answer the question, what is a digital nomad, when I first went to that conference, in 2016, everybody was talking about mobility. And that was the horizontal axis. And digital nomads were adamant that they weren't tourists, and that they were spending their time working. So the vertical axis had work at the top, leisure or non work at the bottom. And I just had that as a blank axis. And I just took it around with me, I had printouts and I had digital versions.

And when I had interviews with people, I just put that down on the table. And I said, Okay, blank piece of paper. Where are you on there? How do you change? And where do you roughly see yourself now, so it was kind of like a narrative device to help me open up conversations. And there could be many other things on that axis, we could have autonomy of control over your own time or other things. So digital nomads tended to put themselves in the high mobility quadrants, and in the highly mobile quadrant. Then, on the right, we have expats, we've got business travel somewhere in the middle, we've got tourism, which is framed around leisure. At the bottom, what I will say is that these are pre pandemic discussions, and I need to redo this now that we're in this pandemic world where everybody seems to be everybody that can work from home, or work remote has had an opportunity to experiment with that.

And, you know, digital nomads are all remote workers, but not all remote work as a digital nomad. So I don't know how that graphic looks now. But I think, you know, remote work is, you know, a big shadow that costs itself i o overall of it. And the fact that I've got digital nomads, being work oriented, and highly mobile, I think can change as well. I was talking a little bit about nomads coming back to Europe and syncing with time. What I really noticed in 2017 2018 2019, was that nomads were learning that if they moved too often, they might experience burnout. So they were slowing down their travel patterns. And I started to use the term digital slow mad, and I'm sure other people started to use that term, you know, roughly around the same time. I'm seeing a crop up quite a lot at the moment. So that was one thing and I Think movements and how much people move is going to change.

And that's really going to change quite a lot. Now that the lifestyle is being legitimized by remote work and digital nomad visas, they're all conceptualized a little bit differently, but they're going to actually shape how, how often people travel. And some digital nomads do have kind of like guilt laden self conversations about, you know, flying too much, for example, and when I go to Thailand, I fly there, but I tried to, you know, travel by bus and train internally. It's not much, but it's kind of like something and it makes me feel just that little bit better. So that's one thing. The other thing is work focus. Now, not every not all digital nomads are very work focused people that are working on startups are working all of the time. I mean, that's the nature of the beast. And that's one of the things that I've found one of the paradoxes, actually, with digital nomads, people that are trying to set up startups often complain that they go to really beautiful places, and they don't have time to experience it, you know. So that can be counterproductive.

Got lots of interesting anecdotes and data about that. But a lot of freelance digital nomads are actually trying to work less. And another paradox that happens is that as soon as a nomad goes away from where their clients are, and they can't have in person conversations, a little bit of FOMO, a little bit of anxiety creeps in and they think, should I be using more downtime to experience, you know, hell tracking in Chiang Mai, or a beach in a Thai Island? Or should I be spending that time trying to get my next client?

Rowena Hennigan
31:51 
That's the nature of entrepreneurship and solopreneur, as well, as you know, that whole area, that there's always that if you're a freelancer or entrepreneur, if you're running your own business digitally, or otherwise, you probably need to be thinking of that. But if you're an exotic location, as you said, Are you being distracted from or feeling these fears, what I thought was really interesting, and I did an experience myself last year, for a project where I went to Bosnia and Herzegovina and I slowly traveled back over a couple of weeks to come back and I did a carbon carbon tracking. And I've come across many nomads in the interviews, I do that or, as you say, slow mad ism, I think it's simply also because as whatever we want to call it as evolve, people are realizing the impact on the environment.

Of course, if you fast travel, if you move around quickly, because usually, if it's fast, you're flying, let's be honest. And also secondly, that if you're fast traveling, it can interrupt your work routine. And still, you've got to work routine. What's interesting to me, and there's probably some other research in the whole well being is that as a very experienced remote worker over many years myself, what I do know is that there can be a tendency to overwork that can be a tendency to sit at a computer, no matter where you are not necessarily focusing. And I think even though computer work has been around for a while, I think there's building awareness as well post COVID on that. So I wouldn't be surprised if that bleeding in or any every remote worker suddenly saying why am I doing a hours when I'm actually not a morning productive for four or five, or whatever it may be.

So I think that that's probably part of that story as well. So I think first of all, I'd love to see your image updated that you took ground and see if we could go back to all those wonderful people that contributed to your research and look at it now because I'm sure it would stand but with different observations. And the second point there is just that what many digital nomads have experienced about remote working is probably common across all remote working. And finally, I'm really glad that you brought up the slow travel because I think once we say the word travel with the climate crisis, environmental crisis, we are everyone should be more aware, in general, other carbon footprint when it comes to travel. So I think that's there's some really interesting bits and pieces there.

So I'm conscious that we're coming up on time, Dave, I just wondered if there was an obviously we'll share the different links. We just wonder if there was anything I look, I'm going to pick up on a point that you said at the start where you said this research could go on for years, which I thought was really you know, really, really interesting. It given that you see this kind of as long as a piece of string or that this could go on and on so much if you could fast forward five years and imagine if we could pull some amazing funding out of the sky for you, Dave. What would be the thing you would put your efforts into next for the next part of the research for Subject what question, would you like to try? And answer what will be the main one,

Dave Cook
35:04 
It's how we can bring intention and kindness into this new lifestyle. You know, when you talk about work, life balance and overwork, you know, you'll know those conversations can turn to being kind to yourself. Some people prefer to start those conversations with being kind to other people kinds of the planet. So it's how we reframe it from being a very individualized, you know, sort of like lone wolf way of working and traveling into something which is really enriching and fulfilling, because one of the key criticisms about digital nomadism is about the erosion of community in place. And I think that's to binary.

And I think that digital nomadism is possible. It's possible to have a community and it's, it is possible to link up and contribute to a place, I don't think that that is happening as much as it should be at the moment, but everything is changing. I mean, you're talking about that graphic and about updating it, I'm actually just wondering if we ought to just kind of like, just scrunch that up, throw it into the bin and say, Look, this is how it was, it's a historical artifact. This is what these distinctions and boundaries were of these different categories of people before the pandemic, I think in the new piece of definition that I am working on, which is going to come out in a couple of months, I asked myself, can I recreate this graphic, and I'm not sure I can, actually. So I'm gonna maybe do it with words. I think it has to be an ongoing conversation. And, but in terms of this being a discrete project, with a start and a beginning and an end, when the pandemic came, it did change everything.

And I went to work with a task force at University College London, and they were looking at work rent, work regulation, and strategies and work life balance. And that's a main area of my research now. And I don't think that employers still know how to lead and how to have conversations about work life balance. And I am working with organizations now trying to guide and help them conceptualize what this new world of hybrid is going to look like. And I would like this world of hybrid to be a kind world, a world where employers keep their, their staff and their staff want them to carry on working for them. Because I'm reading really, really scary stuff about this becoming a culture war with, there was a an article in the Washington Post the other day saying that Disney were bringing all of its employees in four days a week, which is essentially full time after letting them work on hybrid.

Those kinds of companies that, you know, enforce those kinds of policies are going to end up losing all of their talent. You know, this is a way of thinking about work that goes back to the factory Bell, I mean, come on, we need to be better than this. And we can't put the genie back into the bottle. And I'm going to say, we're going to need to fight for this new world of flexible kind work. And if you don't engage with it, you know, hey, companies, you're gonna be the ones losing out. It's not going to be the workers ultimately, but it is gonna make life difficult for some people.

Rowena Hennigan
39:02 
Definitely Wonderful, wonderful. And then you touched on so many points there, but it's all related to kindness. Take kindness and intention, whether you take your remote work on the road or not kindness to the people, you're working with kindness to yourself. So I really liked that, because I think that, that wraps it up perfectly. And it does hint to that overall climate that we're in, as you say, culture wars, them against us. They want this we want this.

And I do think it's going to take bravery and honesty. Like you're saying that people need to respect other people's choices and be kind to them. Given that we've come through a pandemic when everyone was forced to work from home as well. So I think it's a fascinating place to end off so I'm going to repeat in case anyone that will be in the show notes are the notes that go with the webinar, but Dave cook I am Dave cook.com. All together I am D A vcok.com is where you can find find lots more information about Davies links to his research etc. And I want to thank Dave from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to join us today and on behalf of cavil it's been a pleasure, and we're going to finish it off there. Take care.

Dave Cook
Thank you.