National University Podcast Series
National University Deans, Faculty, and Leadership discuss a wide range of topics with a focus on the higher education community. Tune in to hear from our experts, alumni, students, and faculty. Current programs include: Center for the Advancement of Virtual Organizations (CAVO), Virtual Education Support Center (VESC) and Whole Person Center (WPC), formerly Virtual Center for Health and Wellness (VC4HW).
National University Podcast Series
WPC Ep.13 Taking Ownership of Our Attachment Styles to Improve Communication and Connection
With Traci Zajdel and Dr. Aurélia Bickler
Healthy romantic relationships require a sense of harmony between our expressions of autonomy and closeness. When we have experienced threats to security and trust in previous relationships, both in our early years and in adulthood, we often find that the anxiety that comes with fear of loss or abandonment disrupts that balance and can create conflict as we negotiate life with our partners. This podcast explores the process of active self-awareness of attachment styles to facilitate productive communication of needs and anxieties, thereby achieving compromises that nurture rather than stifle the relationships themselves.
Resources:
"Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love" by Dr. Sue Johnson
"Love Understood: The Science of Who, How, and Why We Love" by Laura Mucha
Welcome to the Whole Person Center podcast. Our mission is to improve the human condition by providing resources, research and training opportunities, and direct health services while supporting the development of highly competent professionals. Bonjour and welcome everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to talk about attachment, which is such an important and fascinating topic. And I am honored to welcome the wonderful Tracy Zidell, who is currently a student at National University and completing her internship through the Whole Person Center. Tracy is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She's also a certified sex therapist and received her master's degree in marriage and family therapy from Valdusta State University and has been licensed in the state of Georgia since 2010. She's also an AMF, double AMFT approved supervisor and an AASECT certified sex therapist. So I will let her tell us a little bit more about her and all the wonderful things she's been up to. So, Tracy, thank you so much again for being here today and uh for opening up about such an important topic with us. Would you tell us a little bit about you, your journey, and why this topic is important to you?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, and I am uh very honored to be talking with you today. Um yes, I um uh worked have worked with couples um for a good bit of time, and that's a lot of the focus of um my therapy work. Um, coupling that with my experience as a uh the spouse of a military veteran, um, I'm very passionate about working with that population specifically. And I'm actually concentrating my doctoral studies in uh therapy with military and veteran families. So, like I said, a lot of the work that I do is with these military and veteran uh couples, and this topic, attachment styles, uh, it comes up quite a bit in the work that I do with them. And what I've noticed is that whenever a couple comes to me with some type of relational distress, um, there's often some attachment issue or anxiety uh that comes along with that. Um, so one of the things I did was dive into some research about that association with military population and attachment styles to see what was was out there. And what I found is that uh the research has shown a connection between uh self-reported suicidality and anxious attachments in military members. And what was found is that this was uh most prevalent in the first four years of service. Um, so you find that, of course, in the first four years of service, those are a lot of the younger uh members, a lot of the younger couples that are kind of just learning a lot about who they are and how they are in relationship. So, you know, these these kinds of findings when you link suicidality and attachment, I think that it really illustrates the fundamental um link between attachment and our just willing uh will to live, our personal survival. Um so when I work with these clients, they often resonate with that uh concept of attachment styles. You know, we talk about it, we bring it up, there's a lot of self-exploration that happens there. Um, because the biggest obstacle they face is how to recognize those patterns. You know, if you don't recognize what's happening, you don't know how to change that, you don't know how to work with that to create healthier relationships before they've already wreaked havoc on the relationship and on their lives. Um so, you know, I dove into that and uh have learned quite a bit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's so fascinating. And, you know, I I I too come from a therapeutic background, so I feel like when you say attachment, it's sort of like I I can put I can piece put the puzzles together in my the puzzle pieces together in my head and know what you're referring to, but would you help us better understand what you mean by attachment and even go into attachment styles? And what are you referring to really?
SPEAKER_01:Sure. Um, so when I talk about attachment styles, what I refer to and what I think is kind of the the general reference is the level of security or anxiety that we develop around our primary attachments first, uh, starting at birth with our first caregivers, our parents. Um, and then as we get older, uh it extends into our romantic relationships. And then those relationships sort of become like a representation of what was established with those primary caregivers. So we talk about the level of security. A secure attachment is, you know, when you feel safe in those primary attachment relationships, um, you don't fear the difficulties or the disagreements uh that can come up in relationships because ultimately you know that these people are there for you. They're a secure base of support. Um and as such, they are kind of a base that you can launch and develop your sense of self. Um, and as we do, as we get older, we um differentiate or we ideally would differentiate ourselves from our caregivers and develop into unique individuals. So that secure attachment gives us the freedom to do that and not feel anxiety around that. Um unfortunately, attachment injury can happen in those uh relationships, um, sometimes in the form of things like inconsistent caregiver responsiveness. So, you know, you cry and your caregiver is not there for you, um trauma or neglect, or just a chaotic type of relationship where you never know what you're gonna get from that caregiver. Um, it can create a sense of uncertainty around uh relationship security. And so you don't necessarily know all the time if that person is gonna be there for you, if they're gonna have your back, or if they can be trusted to have your well-being in mind. And I see that a lot in couple relationships, whenever they're starting to um to disintegrate, uh, that's one of the prevalent kind of premises of the relationship at that point is this person no longer has my back. This person is no longer uh interested in my well-being. Um so these anxious attachments they can manifest in different ways. Um, an anxious, fearful attachment can often appear as what we would call needy, uh, someone who really feels like they need to wrap themselves in the relationship and they wrap their identities in the relationship because to them they prefer that to risking the loss of the relationship by trying to be their own person, to trying to differentiate themselves from their partner in the relationship. Um, and then you have avoidant or dismissive attachments. Uh, those relationships can look like an active avoidance of closeness. Um, you you don't really want to get too close to a person because you're afraid that person is gonna go away, you're gonna lose that relationship, uh, or you might just, you know, dismiss relationships altogether just to avoid the prospect of losing yourself in another person, or you know, getting your heart broken and uh, you know, that person going away.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you so much for breaking that down and making it so so I don't want to say easy, but really kind of like so easy to to connect to behaviors that we see in couples, in ourselves perhaps, and people around us, and so on. And so you touched upon it a little bit, but uh why is it important to recognize and understand attachment styles?
SPEAKER_01:So, as adults, um ideally we have the luxury of being able to obtain insight um and learn the meanings behind and the and the origins of our insecurities. Um, these attachment styles can really inform a lot about what relationships mean to us, um, how we move within our relationships, um, how we move towards them or away from them. Um they inform our choices on whether we get into the relationship or how that relationship develops. Um and it it gives us an idea of what I guess what causes certain behaviors when we we get into conflict with with our partners or you know, even in our day-to-day life, you know, if we want closeness and they don't, or you know, vice versa. Um, and it kind of gives us an idea of the origin of the dysregulation that we can feel. Um, because a lot of times that revolves around feeling some sort of um threat to the attachment bond. So um to be able to understand that gives us some language we can use. It gives us um that insight so that if we see ourselves in that place, that you know, an anxious attachment is part of the dynamic, uh, we can address that very directly instead of um projecting that onto each other because that's what can really break down the bond between two people.
SPEAKER_00:So, so so powerful to think about, you know, how to reflect and how to identify these different parts of ourselves and these different ways we contribute to the relationships we're in. I'm curious, how can we assess our own attachment styles within our relationships as they're playing out and determine when anxious or avoidant patterns are forming?
SPEAKER_01:So I would say you start by listening to yourself, um, you know, going within and noticing how you react to your partner, you know, in situations where you might feel a threat to the connection, you know, noticing those times when you are dysregulated, um, you know, do you get high anxiety if you haven't heard from them in a few hours? Um, if there's a change in plans, um, if there's a suggestion that you do separate activities, um, or even, you know, with other relationships in your life, how do you react to your partner's other relationships or even your own? You know, where's that anxiety coming up for you? Um, and also does it feel scary to bring up differences in opinion with your partner? Um, is there a fear of conflict where, you know, I don't want to get into this because if we get into a fight, then um it's really high stakes? Like we're gonna, you know, it's gonna end the relationship when, you know, in reality, conflict is a natural part of relationships and actually should encourage growth. Um, you know, can you recognize a voice of insecurity that's you know, it's actually fear that's telling you, you know, they're gonna leave me, they're not coming back, or I'm not enough because, you know, there's just some some difference there, some conflict there. Um, or that voice might even be a an apathy of, you know, I don't need them that much anyway, I'll be fine on my own. Um, and just just listening and being in tune with with those internal voices, those internal um feelings that you have.
SPEAKER_00:And so trying to take this a you know a step further, how do attachment styles serve to undermine connection and how can we work with them to in fact strengthen our relationships?
SPEAKER_01:So when we're um, you know, uh when we're in romantic relationships, those connections have to be nourished um throughout the relationship. Um there's always gonna be change, there's always gonna be times where um, you know, we evolve as people, you know, we're gonna go through different situations in life. Um and there's always there's a natural give and take in these dynamics of of romantic relationships. So we have to be willing to give and receive influence to have our needs met adequately. Um so what we bring as individuals to the relationship is an important part of what nurtures that bond. Um so this attachment anxiety can lead us down a path where we wrap our identity and our self-worth into the relationship itself rather than our own innate sense of who we are, providing that air that breeds life into the relationship. Um those individual pieces are what help us to navigate the challenges of life and also to um to define the relationship itself and get what we need out of it. Um when that uh anxiety around the attachment constantly demands our partner to give up a little bit more of themselves to appease that anxiety, um, it can take the air out of the relationship. Um, and you know, simple examples of just, you know, if we we feel anxiety because they go out and uh, you know, join a bowling league, and you know, we we feel anxious when they're not with us, and then we ask them, you know, to give up something like that, to give up a pastime or uh give up something about their time that really, you know, gives them the ability to fill their own cup. Um, if we're asking them to give that up to fill our cup, then that is taking life out of the relationship because they don't have that part of themselves that they can bring to the romantic connection.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um when attachment anxiety comes up in a relationship, what can we do to sort of mitigate its effects on the bond?
SPEAKER_01:So, you know, like I said before, um definitely want to be in tune with ourselves first, um, and be honest with ourselves that you know, this it doesn't feel good to constantly not feel good in relationships. So when you feel like it's just a constant anxiety or just a constant sense of um, you know, conflict with our partner around this anxiety, we have to be honest that you know, this this definitely something we need to change. And um, you know, asking ourselves what it is that um that keeps coming up for us. Um, you know, how does it, how do we feel when that anxiety amps up and um during our disagreements? Uh, do we have trouble with keeping ourselves regulated and naming our feelings around it? Um, you know, it could be fear, abandonment, rejection, loneliness, a feeling of inadequacy, or even jealousy, you know, and these are all things we don't necessarily want to admit to ourselves that we feel, uh, but they're natural. Um we have to be able to self-soothe ourselves in some ways in those times. Um, when you notice the changes, taking the time to do something for yourself, um, to increase your sense of identity outside the relationship, uh, putting some time in an individual pursuit, um, finding a way to promote peace within yourself through a physical activity, uh a creative outlet, your own hobbies, um, meditation, or just finding another positive relationship in your life to engage with, to ground you somewhere else, um, and and ground you in your own identity, your own sense of self. Um when we do recognize the attachment issue at hand, um, it can be easier to talk through with our partners. So, like I said, when you have language to bring to that, you can then have a more open and transparent discussion uh with your partner. And this is where the effective communication between the two of you come into play. Um, it isn't our partner's responsibility to heal those attachment injuries. Um, those we we do have to really be conscious of working on ourselves. Um, but as any as part of any supportive relationship, they can serve to validate and be supportive while they're not being asked to compromise important aspects of themselves that they bring to the relationship. Um, you know, they shouldn't be that source of self-soothing. Um, they should be that voice of validation, that voice of support, just to say, I'm here, I've got your back. Um and then when those feelings of upset come come up at your partner, uh take the time to sort through what aspects of the issue are related to your attachment anxiety and what are some things that can be worked on through the relationship agreement, um, whether it be you know dedicating more time together, uh, whether it be dedicating more time to physical closeness or um establishing a greater sense of shared partnership that doesn't require that self-sacrifice that comes with that.
SPEAKER_00:Beautiful. And so for any of our listeners that are thinking, okay, I recognize a lot of things here within my own relationships or within the people around me, or you know, do you have resources that you would, you know, encourage our listeners to either, you know, tap into, reach, if someone's listening and thinking, okay, I relate to this, where do I go from here? Are there particular directions you'd like them to explore?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I think that uh one of the the best places that I've gotten, you know, a great understanding of attachment uh from is uh the emotionally focused therapy uh resources. Uh Sue Johnson's uh approach to emotionally focused therapy. It describes it so beautifully how people um reach for one another and what they're looking for, um, but also how to, well, she calls it the dance, you know, the tango, um how to dance with one another in a way that uh that feels comforting. Um but also, you know, there's a lot of of books out there about attachment.
SPEAKER_00:Um there's one Hold Me Tight, for example, from her, right? Isn't Hold Me Tight from Dr. Sue Johnson one of the best?
SPEAKER_01:Like for me, I feel like yeah, go ahead and that's one that's actually um more geared towards couples and relationships, so you can sit down and use that, and it's not as as jargony. Um, so a couple could um could use that, and and uh there's a lot of different exercises there.
unknown:Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, I I just want to take a minute to say thank you so much. Um, you know, I think I think any person who is listening to this podcast can relate to uh elements of what you talked about, if not all of it. Um, and and you know, as as myself as a therapist who works with couples, I and I know you work with couples. I think it's so encouraging to see a movement towards self-awareness and towards self-fulfillment uh in order to heal from a personal standpoint. So I just want to say thank you for bringing awareness to that and and really shedding light on this important topic for taking the time to explain uh some of how all of this works.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I appreciate it. And uh yeah, I'm very passionate about it. And when it comes to working with couples, I I think it's kind of discouraging sometimes because a lot of times when they come to us, they're already so far in the weeds of of the problem situation at hand that it's kind of like you you almost wish that they had been a little bit more aware ahead of time and maybe had the tools to talk through these things together. Um, because you have to put a lot of things back together with a couple when they're that far, you know, in their distress. And I like to take a proactive approach with things. So for me, that's a great place to start when you're doing that self-exploration um in relationships or even when you're not in a relationship and you're just trying to determine for yourself, you know, am I ready to date? Am I ready, you know, after maybe leaving a relationship, am I ready to get into another relationship? Um, or are we ready to take that next step and get married or things like that that you know you take some time to really look at this part of the self, the attachment part of ourselves?
SPEAKER_00:Beautiful, beautiful, and so incredibly important. Um, thank you so, so much again. Um and you know, until next time, until the next episode, I just want to say thank you to all our listeners uh for listening to us, for tuning in. Um, we hope you got something really meaningful out of our conversation today. And until next time, take care of yourselves, take care of each other. Um, and love yourselves. Bye.