VESC Ep. 7: Creating the Virtual Learning Environment

Dr. Judith V. Boettcher is a nationally known consultant and author on online and distance learning.  She's published five books and developed numerous blogs and resources you can find on her website, Designing for Learning  Her third edition of The Online Teaching Survival Guide:Simple and Practical Pedagogical Tips with co-author Dr. Rita-Marie Conrad is being released this month. In this episode, Dr. Boettcher talks about several principles for effective online learning and offers tips to educators from elementary school through higher education. You can learn more from Dr. Boettcher at http://designingforlearning.info/

Transcript

Amy  0:02  
Best brings you exciting and practical tips for improving your virtual teaching and virtual learning experience. Welcome, everyone. I am so excited to be talking today with Judith batcher, author of five books, and has been long involved in online teaching and learning. Judith, welcome to the show.

Judith  0:23  
Thank you so much, Amy. It's just a delight to be here.

Amy  0:27  
I'm so thrilled that you had the opportunity to spend this time with me today. I'm wondering if you could just tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Judith  0:36  
Well, thank you for asking, because I always love to even though I've lived in Florida for 25 years, I really like to share the fact that I'm a grew up in Minnesota, and I'm a Midwestern er at heart. I am very fortunate I have four grown children with eight grandchildren. So it's, it's really been, it's it's wonderful. Now, the other thing I like to share is that when I'm not writing or traveling is that I do like to do some a little bit of quilting. And I what I do is not that big bed quotes, but I do the little wallhangings. And in fact, there's one behind me it looks like it's called a Mediterranean village. And that's kind of one of my little wallhangings that I like to do. Oh, beautiful. That's wonderful. Did you make one for all of your grandchildren? I actually I am in the process of crocheting Afghans for them all. And I only have one more to go. So that's that's really good. But in the meantime, with all of that going on, you mentioned that my co author and I have actually written five books over 2020 odd years, and all having to do with how do you do teaching and learning online or on the web as it used to be called?

Amy  1:55  
Right, exactly. And that is what we're here to talk about today. So I know that your your one of your books is about to be released in a third edition. Can you tell us a little bit about the online teaching Survival Guide?

Judith  2:09  
Well, actually, I loved Have you asked me that question. I am really pleased and excited about the fact that it's now already available for pre order on on Amazon. And it's actually going to be shipping, I think they said in June. And it's it's really been a life's work. It turns out that as the technology has really changed, then the book has changed a bit because early editions of the book focused more on technology, but always combining technology with pedagogy. That was what, you know, when I was at Penn State, we really spent a lot of time you know, ensuring that we always combined teaching of the use of good use of technology with great pedagogy. And so the book really curious on that theme of pedagogy and technology. And that was the third edition actually it we find that it has changed over the years so that there's less focus on the technology, because if you think about the technology now is just so mainstream, everyone, you know, particularly you know, even kids now have this wonderful technology in their pocket. So the technology is so mainstream, we don't have to talk as much about technology. So the focus over the years has changed and really moved into talking about pedagogy. Absolutely supported by theory. Judy,

Amy  3:30  
your book sounds fabulous. And the third edition sounds like it has some important changes. Can you say a little bit more about how what advice you would give for looking at that third edition, you've shared with me in the past a little bit about an approach that would work.

Judith  3:45  
Okay, well, thank you so much any Yes, as the book has changed over the various editions, but one thing that hasn't changed is the structure. And the first three chapters of the book are really, really lay the foundation for everything. The first chapter, which it's kind of fun to say, a lot of faculty skip over because it talks about the theorists. And it's really a great summary of the key learning theorists and is the reason we do that and start out with that is I think it's really important for all teachers, you know, no matter what level k 12 or higher ed, to really have a speaking acquaintance with a really great theory, educational theorists. And so the first chapter does provide this little nice to add snapshot set. The key theorists such as led by gaskey, who is my personal favorite, you'll see that you know, when you read the book, and then there's a couple more recent ones such as john Seely Brown, I love his apprenticeship model, and also Daniel Coleman with the emotional focus on emotions that, you know, we really didn't incorporate into teaching very much. So that's the first chapter and then the second chapter takes all of that stuff from the learning theorists. Then talks about, okay, given all of that, What are 10? core learning principles? And so that's a good place for faculty member to start and say, Okay, how does learning really occur? What do I do and what actions, behaviors etc, make a difference. So that's chapter two. And then chapter three takes builds on those first two chapters and says, Okay, let's get really, really practical. Here, you're thrown into teaching online, you don't know what in the world you're doing, do read chapter three. And there are some absolute best practices if you do nothing else do these things. And so that really does lay the foundation for all the tips and all the ideas and practices and ideas that are in chapter six through 11.

Amy  5:48  
That is great night, and I have enjoyed reading the book. I know in chapter two, when you're describing those 10, core learning principles, number 10, is we shape our tools and our tools shape us, we say a little bit more about what you mean by that.

Judith  6:05  
First, again, 25 years ago, this whole idea of Oh my god, how do we use technology to teach it was just how do we do this? And what does it mean? And so it's really focuses on the idea and that emphasize the influence of context, just where am I learning? When am I learning with whom am I learning? What kinds of support mechanisms do I have in place. And so the tools even now, when you think about what we're doing, and this, you know, in this podcast, you know, the technology is amazing, you're in Massachusetts, I'm in Florida, and yet here, we can talk and have an interview, just like we are in the same room together. So tools make a tremendous difference. And in some respect, actually create the context for learning. And learning, as we think about it only occurs within the individual, it's only when the individual's brain changes, that learning happens, and yet learning so it has learning has to happen in a particular place, within a particular person within a particular whole set of circumstances instead of tools. So, you know, at first, when I thought about, you know, using that as a core learning principle, it seemed a little strange. But the more we think about and how it's supported by the theory about the importance of context, for example, Lev Vygotsky, in fact, really focuses on context. Also, Jean Ave also focuses on the whole idea of context being so important. So context and tools, super, super important. You know, as I mentioned, I have eight grandchildren, they all have, and, of course, have this powerful computer, in their pockets in their, you know, jeans, all of them, you know, and all kids do. And if you think about it, you know, we had the 50th anniversary of the moon landing just a year ago, I think. And it was in 69. So okay, a couple years ago, our technology that we have in our pocket is more powerful than the computers used to send people to MIT send men to the moon. So what does this mean for teaching and learning? You know, no matter where we are, we've got this fantastic information resource. How do we really use that to help children and young adults? And, you know, adults overall? How do we make use of that kind of technology to really let the students put them in more in charge of their own learning?

Amy  8:42  
Right? That's a great question. I want to stay with tools just a little bit longer. And ask about your thoughts on discussion boards, which is a tool that has been around for a while, but how do you feel about that?

Judith  8:55  
Well, I think that we're learning a lot about technology and learning a lot about how best to use discussion boards. You know, they first were around when online learning really was almost all almost all just almost a correspondence, you know, course and so now, but we're at the point now that discussion boards can really are best used when we differentiate the purpose. I think when discussion boards first came out, it was always well, let's talk about this, you know, type of thing and we don't, didn't get specific about just what are we going to be talking about? What is the purpose of a discussion board? There's, in fact, a blog on my website that differentiates and identifies four different kinds of discussion boards, one of which is we can have a discussion board simply for building community, you know, that whole idea of getting started getting to know each other, and building community building that social presence, and then another type of discussion board would be okay as we starting a new unit, you know, an exploration kind of discussion board. Before we get into this unit, tell me what you know about what do you know about the solar system, just getting started, you know, so we can kind of explore and wake up those little gray cells in our, in our brain. So that would be another real purpose. And then we can have a couple more purposes that really say, Okay, now that we've done some of this work, and we've done some of this thinking, let's analyze, summarize, let's dig in, let's dig, tear this apart a bit, and see what all this means. And then we can also have another discussion board that is actually a bit more that can demonstrate for a teacher, what the learner has actually learned how what they have, in fact, acquired what knowledge they have acquired, what kind of thinking they've done on a particular subject. So anyway, so thinking about the different purposes of this discussion boards, we do know this for a fact, there's some research does, you know, after two or three weeks, if this students are doing discussion boards, and they're, they're the same thing without much differentiation, that they think it can get boring, deadly boring, really, really fast. And students do this, spend time with them. But all they want to do is kind of check that off. Okay, here's my list of things I have to do this week, and I get Alright, I can check this off. And, you know, I was thinking as I was getting, you know, ready for our conversation today thinking, Oh, you know, actually, discussion boards really require students to slow down a little bit. You know, it's not an Instagram, it's not okay, I'm gonna take this photo, post it and then I'm done. The discussion board actually requires students to wait stop slow down a little bit. So it's a, it's a different kind of activity and will require, I think, more coaching on the parts of teachers to do that. Well, it's a great point.

Amy  11:54  
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's a great point. And thinking about it as slowing down and taking the time to even wait for somebody else to respond. And, yeah, like, I like that idea. Judith, you're making such great points. Another principle that I know we talked about when we were preparing for this podcast that I think you would really like to share more about is the readiness principle, can you tell us why that principle is important?

Judith  12:22  
Well, actually, the readiness principle links back to one of the core learning principles that each student has their own particular zone of proximal development. And that is really straight out of the concept by Lev Vygotsky. And that is, you know, I'll just repeat that phrase, because it's a little bit longer. It's, it really, what it really means is that every student is at their own point of readiness. And when I first really reflected on that concept, it was both really scary and overwhelming at the same time, because if you've got a group of you know, 2025 30, and sometimes more students, each individual has their own particular zone of readiness, it also part of that readiness principle is that that window of learning opportunity for students is not the same. So therefore, oftentimes, as we're proceeding through, you know, a unit or an idea or concept, students will all of a sudden stop, and they will be lost, quote, unquote. And when they get lost, it means they're out of their zone, and nothing's going to happen until we get back into and get focused on what that zone is. So the zone incorporates the idea of what is the student actually ready to learn? What is the student ready to learn with the help of others? And then part of that as they go through the learning process, then what can they accomplish on their own, once they've gone through that and they move into another zone. So the whole idea of the zone of proximal development emphasizes the fact that we really have to get to know each of our students as an individual. There's actually it's an old saying that every person, every brain is its own mind. You know, it's every person has their own particular mind. And we have to be figured out how to tap into that, and tapping into a state of student's brain so we can help them learn, you know, and proceed is takes time to get to know each of the students. So how do we do that? It's a real, it is definitely a real challenge. And one of the ways by the way, you know, we ask the question, Well, how do I get to know the students that well, and part of When I mentioned that discussion board about exploration, if we ask students for what do you know already about this topic, it's a way of opening their brain so that we can see where they're at. And we can build on that. The old concept of the constructionist principle reminds us that we can only grow and learn based on what we already know. And so the challenge, you know, is, Holy mackerel, how do we know what they know already, so that then we can help them build on that?

Amy  15:33  
Right, that really resonated with me in your book, and also struck me because I know you've spent your career in higher education. And I've spent most of my career in K 12 education, where we talk about the zone of proximal development, a lot like that, that seems to be something, you know, k 12, educators are usually pretty comfortable talking about. And now as working with adult learners, I wonder sometimes, if that gets taken for granted, so it was wonderful to read that. And to hear you talk about that?

Judith  16:10  
Well, it's it's obviously, it's fundamental to everything I think we do with teaching and learning. So the other idea that I think closely associated with that whole zone of proximal development is that, you know, we often talk about challenges with motivating students, you know, oh, how do we get them engaged? How do we get them motivated, and all the rest of that, and if we know where the student's brain is, and we know what they're ready to learn, we can therefore create opportunities for them to make choices, and to follow their own curiosity. And those kind of go hand in hand. And if they if we can let them proceed on their own trains of thought, their own curiosity, then the motivation is wonderfully intrinsic to the student. And we don't have to have these carrots and all these other things to get them to do something.

Amy  17:06  
You warm my heart. I love what you just said, I feel like I want to say it again, about motivation that it's really has to come from the learner, right? And that it's about tapping into their interests, and their their thoughts as you put it. I think that's such an important and relevant idea. Can you say more? You So you talked about that as a way for engagement? Can you say more about engaging students online? What other tips might you have? Oh,

Judith  17:36  
okay, well, I f with all the questions about how how do we engage students online, I finally came out with, you know, a 40. a, you know, a really, really short response, the short response is that you have to have to get students engaged, you have to require them to do something, you know, rather than having you know, just sit now sit and listen, I'm going to tell you something really important here. Just don't you know, just keep just sit still. And listen, it just doesn't work. You in your environment know that? How many minutes? Is it before people check out? We could listen for what five minutes? six or eight? Yeah, and we take out 20 minutes, everybody's gone. Exactly. So the thing is, I can just imagine all these, you know, 12 and 13 year olds and 14 year olds, you know, just sitting and listening like, yeah, like, right, that's gonna happen. Right, we really have to design learning that requires them to participate that to them to actually be doing things. And we one of the one of the principles we know of learning is one of the best ways for us to learn anything is to teach it to someone else. And so even building and opportunities for you know, you know, we know that study groups are fantastically important, partially because the students have to use their voice, you know, it turns out we want don't want them just to use their ears, we want them to really use the using their voices. And if they say, Oh, you know, sure I understand this. And somebody starts to say, this is what I understand. And they knew that they say about 10 words in this line. Everything kind of dribbles into nothingness. Yeah, maybe I didn't know that as well as I thought I did. You know. So having them explain, talk through ideas is just super important. And also, like I said, have them be take responsibility, you know, I was reading in fact, I was reading a book just recently I found discovered it's a book I don't know whether you've heard about, it's called witness. So in the book, he describes how Elie Wiesel, you know, started every class with questions from the students. He didn't start lecturing right away. And this was you know, what, 20 years ago now. He didn't start lecturing right away. What he did was say art Lupu before We start, what questions do you have from your reading? So again, make pulling them in and making them part of the process. So when we want to really have engagement from students, we want to put the not the burden on them. But we want to do get them involved by saying, What do you think? What did you think about this? What did you think about, you know, whatever, and get them involved. The other thing is, we want them to even take a difficult math problem and say, talk out loud. You know, tell me how, what your thinking was, as you approach this problem, what did you think about it? And students actually, right now they can take their phone and build a little videos about how they thought that and how that worked. So you know, getting them, I getting them involved and engaged in their particular process of learning helps, also helps them build their metacognitive skills. So there's a lot of power, and getting students engaged and getting them to be responsible for part of the learning experience, part of the teaching and learning experience.

Amy  21:08  
Right, right at all ages, right, and all stages of development. how important that is. Yeah. So you have so much knowledge and experience in teaching and learning and in the online and on site environment. What do you see as the biggest difference between these two environments?

Judith  21:28  
Well, can I talk about two differences? Yes, of course. If you want, let's just talk about two, I think the main absolutely the main difference. And between online and on site learning as they were calling it is the amount of design and planning that needs to occur. Prior to the actual experience, you know, students that are not in the same room with you, they really need information about what's gonna be happening, you know, what is the big picture? What are the goals and objectives here? You know, what is what am I gonna look like, you know, once I've learned something, or once I have, you know, once I develop another skill, how is that going to make me different, you know, so we need to really design and plan for just what how the experience is going to begin how it's going to proceed, there's a lot to be, I think, to be considered, for example, you know, how the flipped classroom phenomena was big a couple of years ago, maybe four years ago, now, time goes so fast. But the whole idea with the flipped classroom is what this, you know, focusing on what a student is supposed to do before gathering, and then a focus on Alright, and then this is what you do when you're gathering. And then this is some of the stuff you do after you gather. So for all of these synchronous events that are happening, you know, one idea is, hey, really plan very explicitly, what are you expecting and wanting the students to do prior to the gathering? What do you want them to be doing, within the gathering that it's where you get them to be responsible for some of the stuff that's going on. And then then, kind of reflecting pruning, making it pulling it all together after the event, that's core to really making learning happen. So that's one big difference is the amount of design and planning that we want to go on to focus on. Then the second difference is encapsulated, actually, and the number one best practice for teaching online, and that is the concept of presence, we really need to be present to each other. So you know, there's a model by the community of inquiry model by garrison and and his colleagues, and they talk about three types of presence, social presence, teaching presence, and cognitive presence, we really need to focus on that students who are at the other end of the computer screen, need to know that you, as a teacher really know who I am, if you don't know who I am, I don't really get invested in learning. You know, I want to be doing something else. So the idea of presence, and then the the flip of that is that the students themselves need to be present, and that gets them into the engagement thing. So I think at some point, we talked earlier, you know, and teaching no matter what kind of teaching and learning that we're doing, it's all about absolutely best communication, and building relationships.

Amy  24:56  
Right. That really, again, just resonates with me and speaks to what I know to be good practice as well in the field of social emotional learning, right? And how in being present and teaching children how to be present, and adults need help with that as well.

Judith  25:15  
Absolutely, in fact, some of the most, I think substantial research that really confirms the fact that, you know, actually an online teacher doesn't have to be all that good. If they're present. Interesting, you'll have to give me that researcher later. So I can read more about that. Right? Well, it's a little bit like what Who was it that said, you know, 90% of life is showing up? Right? Showing up, right, like, really, really showing? Exactly. So if students really feel as if the teacher is there for them knows who they are, and cares about their learning. That's, you know, that's a huge percentage of what really needs to be happening. Right? Right.

Amy  26:04  
So I know you provide a lot of different experts support to educators, and you training and you have a website that's loaded with tips and ideas. And we're we have that posted on fastqc. So people can reach that it's called design for learning. Can you just tell us a little bit more about your website and the work that you're doing?

Judith  26:26  
Well, thank you so much, Amy, for asking that actually, my website was initially launched back in Would you believe 2004. And it was one of my daughters, who was really very, very good at all of this, who had launched and you know, it first for me initially. And so it's gone through some iterations. But the primary purpose of the website really is, you know, when I was supporting faculty development at Penn State, and Duquesne and the University of Florida, etc, I, you know, it turns out, I started writing all these tips, you know, and you know, the best practices came out of that the core learning principles all came out of it. And so the website was a place to kind of make that all accessible and available. And then from that came the series of three additions that are published by jossey. Bass. So there, the website does provide just a huge amount of resources. So for those who might not want to buy the book right away, they can go on there, and they can find a lot of stuff that I think will be very helpful for them. In fact, the best practices are all up there. So it's, I do believe in making stuff really freely accessible as much as possible. So that's one thing it does the other thing it does it No, it provides a way for people to kind of, you know, contact me or my co author, you know, read it, Marie Conrad, you know, for just the kinds of things that we're doing. I had fun this summer I, they invited me there was one group, who invited me to be part of a book club. So they had adopted the book as a book club. And so then they met for like three months, you know, they've met over the summer. And so I've kind of participated in the book club series, you know, with that group. And then also, over the last year, I was invited twice to do be a speaker at a couple of groups over in Switzerland. And I wasn't really disappointed that I had to do it virtually right. I would have loved. So I haven't been to this site, but I hopefully it will be soon.

Amy  28:31  
Well, you're giving me all kinds of ideas about how we can invite you back to vasque, to do some other speaking for us, because I know that there's just so many ideas and tips in your in this book, as well as the other items that you've written, and on your website. So I thank you for that. And they can contact you through the website, the link is in the description of this podcast. Is there any other information to contact you that you'd like to mention?

Judith  28:58  
I think that you know, it's really the contact me through I think I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn, too. So I've got you know, things there. And actually, my email easiest one is just Jay Batra at Comcast. dotnet is just a really, really easy one. Oh, you know, I do also want to mention that, you know, on the, with the website, and ever all the work that I've done is that I also consulted with aq ACU E, which is the Association for college and university educators. And, you know, they referenced the end use and, you know, build a lot of online learning modules on some of the ideas that are in the book and on the website, too. So that's why, you know, that's just wanted to give mention them as well, because they're a great organization.

Amy  29:47  
That's great. That's quite an accomplishment. So when we close out our podcasts, we always ask this question. I used to think virtual teaching and learning was now I think virtual Teaching and Learning is

Judith  30:01  
can you fill in the blanks? Oh, yes. And obviously, since I got started in this a long time ago, I really used to think that online learning distance learning was really, you know, really well designed and perfect for working professionals who were working to, you know, added grief, finish their degree, whatever people who had to really balance, you know, life and, and work and education. And then over the years, and I think it is because of the way the technology has gotten so mainstream, I think now that virtual and on virtual and online learning works really well, for even older adolescents and undergraduates. I do recommend that we don't do online virtual learning for an you know, for kids, children, excuse me, children under the age of 12. You know, if you go leave, we go back to john Piaget stages of cognitive development, until the students are really at the formal operational stage, I really think that, you know, the online learning is a little bit of a challenge for them. But who knows, you know, we've been wrong before. And it may be that it may be that as technology advances and ideas advanced, that we'll be able to do a good job with even younger children. I wouldn't try it today, though.

Amy  31:26  
Well, there's a lot of educators out there who didn't have a choice. But to try No, I know, and it's just

Judith  31:34  
this is, you know, obviously, time is an element, though, obviously, as we were talking before, you know, kids, we our attention spans are extensive. And so we, you know, the more we have to have the students doing, right, and, and having them actually use their motor skills, actually, one of my daughters is teaching and helping a group prepare for have young kids helping them prepare for for receiving First Communion, would you believe? And so, here they are, they were trying one of the one of her co teachers was, you know, trying to get the students to go through again, and summarize what they had to do instead of and my daughter Finally, you know, finally said, Oh, wait a minute, Greg, you know, I think we really ought to have the students move and do these things.

Amy  32:29  
Right. So if you're in that situation, I guess the advice would be get them moving. Anyways. Right? Short of online, asynchronous and not long, long sessions. Yeah. Right.

Judith
Excellent. All absolutely, Amy, your experience with your K 12. comes through?

Judith  32:51  
Well, my heart goes out to the teachers who are working so hard and continuing to just really do everything they can to make this the most effective experience for kids that it can be and, and it's just always fascinating to hear. And really, I truly believe this, that learning is the same no matter what age you are, we all need to be engaged. We all need it to be personal, we need to be inspired by what we're doing from within ourselves. And you really speak to that at the adult level. But in my head, I kept thinking it's true for kids.

Judith  33:29  
I know well, you know, it's teaching is learning is learning, no matter where we are. The one core one constant is the fact that learning only happens when change actually happens chemically. In the learners brain, you know, that's it has, we had the students have to do that constructive work themselves, we can't transfer it to them, you know, we can't open their heads up and forward. And they really have to construct those synapses, and etc. themselves. And we have to structure and design our learning for that to happen helped to help them make that happen.

Amy  34:09  
That is the perfect note to end on. Judith, I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you so so much for spending time with us and sharing your wealth of experience. Again, you can find her at design for learning. It was a pleasure to speak with you.

Judith  34:27  
Thank you so much, Amy for inviting me. And yes, I would love to actually I do respond to emails and things so people can talk to me. 

Amy
Great. Do you want to say your email one last time?

Judith  34:39  
Sure. It's jbatcher@comcast.net.

Judith  34:46  
Great. And again, the link is in the summary for this podcast.

Amy  34:51  
Thank you, Judith. I look forward to continued conversations with you about this topic. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. I'm Amy, it's been a delight. Thanks for joining us on best. This is Dr. Amy Lynn. Remember, learning is right at your fingertips